joel thinks java makes you dumb

[otake-tux]

edit- comment may have offended someone.

in here there is an article that deals with the subject of teaching java. Its an interesting read and I'd like to see what the ubuntu comunity thinks about this.

[LordHunter317]

If you like to program and you do not know who joel spolsky is you better read on.

If you like to program and you actually listen to what joel says, you should spend yourself bettering your time programming instead of listening to someone who just reguritates pop-thought in poor ways.

It also doesn't help that his article is as wrong as wrong can be. Java has pointers, and Java supports recursion and I've written plenty of recursive code in Java.

His real issues is that schools are no longer teacher the actual topics of CS and software engineering, but rather just turning out waves of programmers. And that's not argued. But his basis for making the argument is well, retarded. Scapegoating something as inanimate as a language indicates to me that you have no argument. There are far eaiser, more passionate, more logical, and stronger arguments to make here.

Java isn't at fault.

Its an interesting read and I'd like to see what the ubuntu comunity thinks about this.

I think you should stop reading what Joel says, frankly. The number of obvious logical fallacies he draws is amazing. Virtually every paragraph states a problem, then constructs a strawman to argue against it (he ignores the most important issue or key factor every time).

[Syntax13]

This article is kind of ironic. My friends and I were discussing how the CS degree has become a big joke. I've never seen or used any java, so i can't agree or disagree with him on that. But we were comparing my freshman CS classes with a junior's, and it's basiclly the same thing over and over (actually, the freshman class is ahead...we've passed "the basic structure of a while loop"). The senior and graduate classes seem decent, but overall it's become pretty sad. (i get flashbacks to highschool...same thing every year over and over).

[otake-tux]

I did not say that I agree with him, nor did I say he is always right. Never the less, hi is a proffesional programmer with many years of experience and published works.

[LordHunter317]

Never the less, hi is a proffesional programmer with many years of experience and published works.

That doesn't make him qualifed to comment either, per se. His "expertise" is more due to his popularity, not his actually expertise.

Anyway, you asked for commentary, you got it. The article is trash.

[otake-tux]

Anyway, you asked for commentary, you got it. The article is trash.

Why are you being so rude? I happen to agree with you, I just posted this because I thought it be an interesting subject for the programming board. Joel may not be always right, but he does deserve to be heard. Many young college students visit this board and the subject of joels post pertains to them. Joel did justify his views, he does bring an interesting point and its worth discussing in a programming board, there's no need to get all mad about it.

[LordHunter317]

Why are you being so rude?

I'm not being rude, I'm being brief. There is a difference.

I happen to agree with you, I just posted this because I thought it be an interesting subject for the programming board.

Why? "Joel spouts more drivel" If I want drivel, I'll read /. There's no interesting commentary there. It's not only been done before, it's been done better.

Joel may not be always right, but he does deserve to be heard.

Because he has a book published? Because people read his blog? If so, then it's a sad state.

Joel did justify his views,

Poorly. A student haven taken 3 days of basic logic or debate could point out the obvious, glaring holes.

he does bring an interesting point

No, he doesn't. It's a prima facie logical fallacy and is therefore uninteresting.

and its worth discussing in a programming board, there's no need to get all mad about it.

I'm not mad. You're the one who's clearly upset about the fact I'm slamming Joel and slamming you slightly for posting it for no other reason then because it was Joel who wrote it, since that's a crap reason.

[nrwilk]

I find this person to be utterly illogical and entirely wrong.

Although I'd rather have the avian flu than write another line of Java, I strongly disagree that this situation is the fault of the language.

[otake-tux]

allright I see what you are saying clearly. I guess we cannot post anything you do not like in this board. I will ask for your permission next time

see you could have posted you opinion without slamming anybody but joel, you could have just said you didnt agree with him for this and that reason. That was the purpose of this thread. You didnt and now the thread just looks like an ego driven argument between me and you. ok, you win.

[LordHunter317]

I guess we cannot post anything you do not like in this board.

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is twofold:

• Trying to defend your posting of Joel's article "because Joel worte is" is illogical, and silly. If it were Strostroup or Dijkstra, maybe then we'd be talking about someone where they're at the level it's sufficent to post their work for the simple sake they wrote it. Joel isn't at that level. Yet, you've done that since the beginning: your whole apparent reason for posting this is "because Joel wrote it," and not because the article actually has any merit or value. Where I come from, the author is cared less about than the merit or value of the work. The merit of this work is zero, and the merit of the author isn't enough to cover for that (it almost never is).
• Ignoring your reasons for posting it, the article a) says nothing new b) says nothing valid c) other articles say these things better.

So if your goal was to start a discussion about the state of higher education and the IT industry, there are far better articles you could have cited. If your goal was to get commentary on Joel's, you got it. The article is bad enough it shouldn't even be read.

If you don't like that view, that's fine. However, I don't think this is the right forum for talking about Joel for the sake of Joel. Which is seemingly what you want.

see you could have posted you opinion without slamming anybody but joel, you could have just said you didnt agree with him for this and that reason.

The only thing I ever slammed you for is defended Joel as someone who has an inherent right to be heard or listened to. He doesn't, no more than anyone else. He's not special. He has no excessively special credentials, besides he writes pop-culture IT articles that lots of people seemingly read.

For someone with lots of claimed technical "expertise", he sure makes a lot of technical errors in that article.